what you are asking is not fair! It is the very early constant threat of rape that produces the kind of blind faith in the adults that characterizes Islamic humanity. The constant threat of rape-violence cause an almost universal STOCKHOLM SYNDROME (which words please google) in the general population, which causes muslims to love all terrorists (please Mr. Terrorist, don't rape me hard of kill me) and see them as great heros and saviors. Without this child rape - the Muslim religion would die out, and that is Religiocide! And that is not religiously correct! Take it back! Shame on you!

IF WE DONT STOP ISLAM THE STATUE OF LIBERTY WILL BE WEARING A BOURKA AND THE LIBERALS WILL CHOSE THE COLOR OF IT

Dr. Bill Warner analyzes Islam and its insatiable need to dominate and mentions the Copts near the end of his interview with FrontPage Magazine.
http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/category/articles-2/

Here he speaks directly to your blog. Unfortunately, he left the Copts off his list. We will have to make him aware of this. Otherwise, his analysis is correct.
http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/2007/11/

The 'slimes sued Geert Wilders and lost. Perhaps not the final legal battle, but the first in a protracted conflict Truth triumphed this time. We must build upon that victory and seize more ground. The lid is off the septic tank, lets shine the light of truth upon the exposed worms and the foul brew upon which they feed.

WE must function in a total state of WAR against this Islam's abominable Ideology and Mentality.

A small step is the International BAN ISLAM petition.

http://www.petitiononline.com/MYSTIC/petition.html

Assalamau Laikum all,

So where were the mighty, well fed, well trained christian copts soldiers to repel these hungry, bare footed covered with rags killer thugs from Arabia?

These are your greaaaaaaat grandfathers and mothers we are talking about....surely your mighty armies could have stopped them in their tracks?

No I think that the reality was different, they came bearing the miracle of the Koran, alms, gifts, news of the last and greatest prophet Muhd SAW and were welcomed.

Once the news was out that Jesus PBUh too was a muslim, Islam appealed to many coptic womens in particular...and many (probably secretly) converted to Islam.

After this they would have taught their chilrens about Islam (without their fathers knowing...unless they too had converted), who further spread the good news ...and the rest is history as they say.

I won't deny that they brought the odd sword or two...and I won't deny that some rapes will have occured and I cannot conden this ....sorry for that too.

Naseem speaks with a forked tongue like the others of islam. Dual etics and submission are their tools along with lying, cheating, stealing, rape and murder in the name of a moon god who must be fed on a diet of blood. Jesus the Christ brought the Light of Love into the world and this light can illuminate even the darkness of Naseem's soul.

Muslims are in complete denial about the horror of their religion. From the fact that Muhammad tortured, murdered and mutilated people. The fact that Muhammad was such a pervert that he even had sex with children. To the fact that Islam was spread in the course of murdering, plundering and raping innocent people. To the fact that Islam teaches that any crime is permissible if it committed by a Muslim against a person of another faith. So since I believe that the vast majority of Muslims are good people I have to assume that they are ignorant of these facts , and there can be no denial of these facts, They are recorded in the Koran and Hadiths. So I think that if Muslims were ever to become aware of how horrible Islam is and what a monster Muhammad was they would convert in an instant

Naseem ! You are correct ! The Egyptians were pussies! They were gentle people who trusted their fellow human beings, and they concentrated on feeding their families and being law-abiding. But, because they loved peace, and because they trusted their fellow humans, they caused the Muslims to be disgusted with them so the Muslims slaughtered these families, dragging them out into the streets and butchering them - the strong must live and the gentle weak wimps must die! So it always it with you Muslims Naseem - I am quite sure that you would be a cheer leader for the torture and murder of my own family should you be there when your fellow worshippers of war and violence finally form a hoard and swarm into the streets of my town and begin to pull out innocent families to have their heads slowly sawed off - you will laugh as they do this to my ageing parents and you will say, "the only way we can have peace in the world is if everyone becomes a slave to the Koran". Your God of the murder of the innocent has created you in His own image naseem - now that we have seen Naseem, we have seen Allah!

Assalamau Laikum Hal,

Wow, that's a bit strong...I am a 40+ muslima widow, hardly one who could drag your ageing parents onto any street....and I would never do that...I am a peaceful muslima.

Your statement now that we have seen Naseem, we have seen Allah! is one which caused me offense. You see it says in the hadith that "even if all the oceans of the world were turned to ink, it would not be enough to write about the superlatives and the mercy of Allah". ....and you compare me ....an absolute nobody to Allah SWT....shame on you Hal.

If you are you telling me that copts...cop out of protecting themselves...then Hal....you need to leave them.

In the yesterdays when your ancestors roamed Egypt (rather than ruled it), Coptic womens would have seen the rugged, strong, handsome men from Arabia...found them to be irresistable...and flocked to their arms....womens do that sort of thing...they like strong men...your own admission of your grandfathers being weak wimps...you know...blame them...and your grandmothers for being lured to be bitch slapped....blame them.

Naseem,

You prove to me time and time again the true evil of the islamic cult the twisted thinking of it's sadistic followers. Naseem does indeed speak with a forked-tongue. So typical of the islamic "faith".

I must say, that the hatred spewed in the koran is so complete that it also causes absolute hatred even between other muslims. Arab muslims hate Berber muslims, Persian muslims hate Asian mulsims, and so on and so forth. If the islamic cult was a united front, then the mayhem would be unstoppable, but, thankfully, the hatred in the koran is so deep that it doesn't even allow mulsims to get along with one another.

Thank muhamad for that.

Naseem is representative of the muslim mind, a mind that is intellectually stunted and emotionally crippled. Why? Because she has been brainwashed and brought up in a mental box with no understanding of unitary ethics or the Golden Rule. She is so sad as she travels from website to website, peddling her barbaric ideology, a political system cloaked in a religion of hatred.

muslims need to be banned from existence, whatever it takes

Assalamau Laikum Anonymous,

Allah T'allah showed Muhd SAW a representation of this duniya (earth) as flat (easier to understand). He said my chosen will live in all corners of this duniya...regardless of what the sons of apes tell you. ...you cannot be banished and cannot be ignored.

...guess who your neighbour is going to be soon.
...guess what you will hear at 5am in the morning.
...guess what type of mortgage your chilodrens will buy.
...guess what book your childrens will keep on the cleanest & highest shelf in YOUR house.

Allah Hafiz.... for now anyway....

Ola' Naseem...

...guess who your neighbour is going to be soon.

Most likely a hispanic Christian.

...guess what you will hear at 5am in the morning.

Um, nothing, I will be sleeping.

...guess what type of mortgage your chilodrens will buy.

What's a chilodren?

...guess what book your childrens will keep on the cleanest & highest shelf in YOUR house.

Anything but a quran, sorry to say for you.

"...regardless of what the sons of apes tell you..."

There's the love I was lookin' for naseem.

Naseem, Naseem, Oh dear, I hope you do not send your strong handsome men to cut my throat if I dare to tell you something. You said, "your grandfathers being weak wimps...you know...blame them...and your grandmothers for being lured to be bitch slapped....blame them." Spoken like a true female cut-throat! But, you forget that we are called by our God, Jesus Christ, to allow you to murder us at times, as He allowed you all to murder Him - this so that at the end of the world it will be very clear who was a murderer and who was not. There is a good reason for this! If you were walking in heaven and you met a silly person, just one, you can be sure that it is no longer heaven. It just takes one cut-throat to turn heaven into hell. I know you do not look at it that way, being the kind to love to see my old grandmother being bitch-slapped by a young, tall, strong, hansome, Arab - but it is true Naseem. Murder and Robbery are very, very bad, even if done according to your savage religion which, as you are well aware, hugely approves of the cold blooded murder of totally innocent people.

The Muslim Caliph Omar Ibn Alkhatab ordered Muslim general Amer Ibn Alass to destroy the priceless Library of Alexandria more than a millenium ago. That destructive legacy continues today with the tradition of Islamic Shariah law and the Ottoman ghost of Hamayouni laws that serve to systematically persecute the Coptic Church, Coptic Christians, their property and businesses. Muslim apologists' much-repeated Quranic statement "There is no compulsion in religion" is shown to be impotent if not downright deceptive. If Islam is truly a religion of peace and tolerance, the abuse toward the Copts must stop. Christians everywhere should support the Coptic Church, and the U.S. Government, which gives billions of dollars in aid to Egypt every year, should work to stop the intimidation and abuse Muslims exact upon Coptic Christians in Egypt. Perhaps white noise machines could be used around Coptic churches to dampen the obnoxious Islamic loudspeakers during Masses, but this is only a tentative solution to only part of a much larger societal problem caused by the menacing, intolerant chauvinism of Islam.

I just have one question: Is Nasseem a muslim, or a Klingon?

It's so easy.

Come on!
Why ban islam? I didn't sign the Ban Islam Petition.
You know why?

Because it is not enough.

All religions should be banned.

Religions are bad.
Religions bring wars and sorrow.
Religions are fantasies.
Religions are stupid. (And Islam is the worst of them, I admit that.)

Religions should all be banned, not by means of force, but banned from human thoughts. We should just give up with those stupid fairy-tales, period.

In the meanwhile (because this next evolution, uh, improvement, of the human spirit will take time), all diplomacy with coutries where religion is not separated from state should be stopped.

Separation between Religion and state is one of the basis of the franch constitution. It's a 220 years old law!

Separation between religion and state is the upgrade of a coutry to civilised level.

Dear "Truthvoice" Thank God for your great wisdom - just in time! "Baptists suicide bombers alert !
Look out for them! You can't trust them! They want to kill you! They can hardly wait to shed their sex organs and assend to heaven where they will read the King James Bible 24/7. If you see a Baptist board your airplane, TURN BACK BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!
/ALSO - watch your family! If a Baptist kidnaps a member of your family, you can be sure you have little chance of seeing him or her alive again no matter how much money you give them! Oh them dangerous Christians! How will we ever survive?
--
MY ANGEL HATES DISTRACTION

The Prophet Muhammad married a Coptic Christian Egyptian slave named Maria al-Qibtiyya, so one would think that, by example, Egyptian Muslims would exhibit at least some honor toward the Coptic Church and Coptic peoples of Egypt (even though female slaves were typically gained as spoils of war after their husbands were slaughtered). But we should remember that Muhammad gave permission for husbands to beat their wives if they suspect they might be disobedient (Quran 4:34), and in any case husbands will not be asked to account for why they beat their wives (Abu Dawud, Sunan, volume 2, Hadith #'s 2141, 2142).

You're right, Hal.

Only Islam is violent and dangerous.
Islam is stupid (I read the koran). Other religions are too, but Islam is worse.

You're right, but please notice this... I didn't say Christian or baptists are violent or dangerous.

I live in Belgium, a country where Church is separated from state, in northern Europe. Many people used to be catholics,... long ago. Very few still waste time in churches. It doen't make my country more secure, but who said catholics are dangerous? Not me, Hal...

Truthvoice - I feel that I am you - was you (now I'm very old) Brought up by faithful atheists, I was one with them and a better one than them. Because I studied hard to prove to everyone that there is no God, I stumbled upon prove that there is one - my proof is perfect and unassailable - you will find it at www.//godmodern.com/ You will not be bored and you will never be the same again.

excuse me, that is //www.godmodern.com/

The sixth President of the United States of America (1825-1829 C.E.), John Quincy Adams, said of Islam:

"In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, combining the powers of a transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent god; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE . . . . Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years already raged. The war is yet flagrant. . . While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men." (emphasis in original)

truthvoice said:
It's so easy.

Come on!
Why ban islam? I didn't sign the Ban Islam Petition.
You know why?

Because it is not enough.

All religions should be banned.

Religions are bad.
Religions bring wars and sorrow.
Religions are fantasies.
Religions are stupid. (And Islam is the worst of them, I admit that.)

Religions should all be banned, not by means of force, but banned from human thoughts. We should just give up with those stupid fairy-tales, period.

In the meanwhile (because this next evolution, uh, improvement, of the human spirit will take time), all diplomacy with coutries where religion is not separated from state should be stopped.

Separation between Religion and state is one of the basis of the franch constitution. It's a 220 years old law!

Separation between religion and state is the upgrade of a coutry to civilised level."

I have a better idea, why don't we ban fanaticism, since fanaticism is the worse poison around. It is found in all types of cultures, societies, and belief systems, including atheism. Fanaticism brings nothing but problems. So it is a good idea to ban it regardless of what belief system the fanatic belongs to. Do any of you athiests agree?

truthvoice said:
"You're right, Hal.

Only Islam is violent and dangerous.
Islam is stupid (I read the koran). Other religions are too, but Islam is worse.

You're right, but please notice this... I didn't say Christian or baptists are violent or dangerous."

Christianity is a religion and Baptist are a Christian sect.

'I live in Belgium, a country where Church is separated from state, in northern Europe. Many people used to be catholics,... long ago. Very few still waste time in churches. It doen't make my country more secure, but who said catholics are dangerous? Not me, Hal"...

Catholicism is a religion so in your mind it is dangerous.

Marie, you said : "Catholicism is a religion so in your mind it is dangerous."

So... how can you say you know what's in my mind.
You're totally wrong, Marie.

I don't think Catholicism is dangerous. It was dangerous, in the past, but not today.

Catholicism, like other religion just insults logics and intelligence, that's why I dislike religions, and that's why I don't want any religion to have any lawful or political power in the country I live in. I refuse religions to have any influence on me and my lifestyle, that's all. I have better chance not to be "religioned" if I live in a country wher fewer and fewer people go to church.
I want all freedoms to be preserved. Speech, politics, thoughts, sexuality, not getting married, abortion, euthanasia, etc... Catholics would try to deprive me of those freddoms, while a 100% atheist society will have no influence on religious people. If they feel obliged to get married, if they choose tu suffer from lethal desease until theyr last breath, that's ok, they can live the way they want.
The only acceptable choice for a society is a 100% atheist strucure.
Atheist don't want to convert catholics.

Assalamau LAikum all,

I think that christianity is probably the most difficult to believe as a religion. I mean you want the peoples to have faith in and pray to a holy ghost...I mean what's that all about?

Assalamo-blah-blah yourself, Nasseem.

You shouldn't say "you want..." because, we, westerners, have made much more leaps forward than you did. Bible-worms are few up here, you know?

You should say "they want..."

"The only acceptable choice for a society is a 100% atheist strucure."

That would mean getting rid of religion.

"Atheist don't want to convert catholics."

So athiests don't want to convert Christians, but they have no problems trying to convince Christians that their beliefs are irrational, God does not exists, all religions are man made, and all people need to join the rest of humanity and dump religion.

All of my assertions mentioned above are from my experiences with militant athiests who wanted to convert me to athiesm.

Hal : "Brought up by faithful atheists"

Nope!

Very moderate agnostics.

I became a fierce atheist at a pretty early age and never stopped being much less moderate than my parents are. They are the product of the very cool peace-and-love sixties. They're no hippies however, but they always tried to advise me to be more tolerant.

I'm currently reading your website.

Naseem said:
Assalamau LAikum all,

I think that christianity is probably the most difficult to believe as a religion. I mean you want the peoples to have faith in and pray to a holy ghost...I mean what's that all about?

We have faith and pray to God, just like Muslims have faith and pray to Allah, but the only difference is we Christians are allowed to question and challenge certain things in the Bible.

Also Jesus never preached the use of violence. He preached love, compassion, and peace, unlike Muhammed.

Marie :

"That would mean getting rid of religion."

Yeah! In society only. Anyone may have its own private beliefs/way of thinking.
But no law at all ruling my world should even veeery partially be dictated by religion! That's what I mean by "a 100% atheist structure".

Laws with no religion won't disminish catholics' freedoms of choices while catholic laws would deprive me from parts of my freedom. I want to keep the right to choose to die if I suffer from an unbearable lethal disease, for exemple. If catholics, ruled my country, they would deny me the right to choose, wouldn't they?

"Trying to convince"
You mean, discuss, talk, etc... Or you mean violence?

"Wanted to convert"
What... they tried to force you, to threaten you? Or did they just talk, express their points of view?

No, they hated Agnostics, so did I. But today, if I were to hate anybody (impossible because I don't believe that people necessarily have enough free-will to be evil - not enough for me to judge anyway) it would be The Agnostics {they don't believe in a fixed reality}.

Hal?

What "no"?. It's my parents I was talking about. They are agnostics.

So you think people don't have enough free-will to be evil?
That's interesting, can you tell me more?
You mean "nobody has enough free-will", or just "most of the people don't have..." because I think I can name a few of them who have...

"Yeah! In society only. Anyone may have its own private beliefs/way of thinking"

But that means putting a prohibition on people's rights of freedom of expression and speech. That would take away their rights as humans beings.

"But no law at all ruling my world should even veeery partially be dictated by religion! That's what I mean by "a 100% atheist structure"."

This is what secularism is for. The seperation of Church and State. Religion should have no part in politics.

"Trying to convince"
You mean, discuss, talk, etc... Or you mean violence?

"Wanted to convert"
What... they tried to force you, to threaten you? Or did they just talk, express their points of view?

Nice try. But any discussion where the person is trying to convince someone that their belief in God is wrong is a form of proselytizing, just as Christians have discussions to prove in the existance of God. Trying to convince someone religious or nonreligious belief is wrong is a form of proselytization, which is how athiests and religious people gain converts.

April 9, 2008 5:12 PM

Marie :
"But that means putting a prohibition on people's rights of freedom of expression and speech. That would take away their rights as humans beings."

Not at all!
I don't want to demolish churches or anything like that!! (English isn't my motherlanguage)
When I say "ged rid of religion in society", I mean "deny any power of religion over society".

We agree : "Religion should have no part in politics." that's exactely what I mean.

"any discussion where the person is trying to convince someone"
come on! Every discussion involving people disagreeing over some point (wether it is religion, politics, football, or anything) implies trying to show the opponent that he's wrong, and that you're right! There's nothing wrong with that.

What I meant was : if an Opus Dei freak becomes minister, he will make laws that will be polluted by his thoughts, because he think that it is right that everybody should follows the rules christianism. No atheist will ever force a catholic to have an abortion or to take poison if he gets cancer. But the Opus Dei freak will prevent me from taking lethal drugs that will let me die painlessly if I get cancer. That's what I meant.

So not only church should be kept away from politics, but religions as well. No political party should be allowed to include religious points in their programs.

""any discussion where the person is trying to convince someone"
come on! Every discussion involving people disagreeing over some point (wether it is religion, politics, football, or anything) implies trying to show the opponent that he's wrong, and that you're right! There's nothing wrong with that."

Then how do you explain militant athiests?

Yes. Militant atheist exist.

But what do they do?
Demonstrate, or burn churches?

"Yes. Militant atheist exist.

But what do they do?
Demonstrate, or burn churches?"

They do not Demonstrate, or burn Churches. Not yet. They are some people including me, that are becoming concerned about these people. Some of us feel intimidated by them.

Yeah, but come on. What do they do?

"Yeah, but come on. What do they do?"

Lets see. Well we feel intimidated by militant athiests, because they believe that we are inferior human beings that deserve to be humiliated and do not deserve to live. They also believe that religious people should be suppressed at all costs and those who teach children religion should be thrown in jail.

That is why we are concerned about them. That is why some of us feel intimadeted by them and reframe from wearing religious symbols in public.

Hmmm...

You talk about what they believe...
You don't describe how you can know what they beleive...
You still don't say what they do...

Facts, please!

"Non religious symbols"? What country do you live in?

truthvoice - you, a microscopic dust mote in the middle of a comic train wreak amid infinite vortex's of atomic explosions, think you can push back against all of that? Like, it is going to make the slightest difference? Impossible! If there is no God, there is no free will. How can one be an atheist and believe in free will? I never met an atheist who believed in free-will - perhaps you are an agnostic? Where do you think this "free will" comes from? Do you think animals have it? Free will is just another word for consciousness or "life" or "freedom" or choice or power. How come you by this magic if there be no ultra-powerful master of this mindless and helpless universe? Do you think this mindless universe, in the end, will win over RATIONALITY ???????????

I have already described why we feel intimidated by militant athiests. I am ending this discussion.

Hal?
"think you can push back against all of that?" Did I say that?

"How can one be an atheist and believe in free will?" What's the problem with that?

"Where do you think this "free will" comes from?" Hah! a classical religion-prover technique! To answer that question, one must first admit that "free-will" has to "come from somewhere". Writing that something "comes from somewhere" is equivalent to claiming that there is a god, which is the idea that is to be proven.

Marie...

Too sad. You described not why you feel intimidated, but that you feel intimidated.

And no fact at all!!

And you leave, just like this.
And you want to make us believe that you can prove that atheists are like you describe them???
Come on, try again!

2:00 AM here, buddies.
Time for me to go to bed.
See you tomorrow! XX

As one dedicated to spirituality, I've but one answer for the atheists. It is the height of arrogance and ignorance for Atheists to assume that they on this minor MUD BALL are the most developed consciousness in the whole vast Universe.
Like Music the energy of creation has many octaves which is far beyond our awareness.
Fanatiscism to "ISMS", spiritual or political is the desease.
Awareness is everlasting growth.
Political isms has killed more humans in the last 100 years, than religious isms.

In response to what the "Invitation of Islam" probably really looked like:

Take a look at what Wikipedia has to say about the fate of a Christian pilgrimage site in Alexandria during the Islamic Conquest (and destruction) of Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Mena

truthseeker == Free Will = how you figure it is possible? Is your brain strong enough to push back against all that? I mean, how do you figure you can pick even your next thought. Tomorrow, a micrometeorite will puncture your head and change your brain and your personality will be changed completely - this happens you know - perhaps with your free will power (what mighty power indeed) you will push back all of infinity in order to resist that personality alteration? I am not asking you to explain the mystery of free will = I am asking why you assume that you have any at all? How could you? and why would you assume you have any at all? What thought process leads you to this remarkable assumption?

TRUEVOICE

CHRISTIANS KNOCK DOORS TO CONVERT.....JEWS DONT KNOCK ON DOORS TO CONVERT.....MUSLIMS BLOW YOUR DOOR TO CONVERT.

Muslim motto A FAMILY THAT BLOWS TOGETHER STAYS TOGETHER

WAKE UP----I dont care if you an athiest that is fine with me,,,but we have a common enemy it is the teaching of ISLAM,,,,ASK ANY MUSLIM WHAT IS THE PUNISHMENT FOR BEING AN ATHIEST..??

IF WE DONT ESTOP ISLAM THE STATUE OF LIBERTY WILL BE WEARING A BOURKA SOON AND YOU TRUEVOICE YOU WILL CHOSE THE COLOR OF IT....Of couse only if you have still your head in place-

A sallam aleikum---- Mohamed hu a rasoul hu ibn kelb

Lorenz bouchard :
"It is the height of arrogance and ignorance for Atheists to assume that they on this minor MUD BALL are the most developed consciousness in the whole vast Universe."

Do they say that? I don't.
BUT, religious people claim they have answers to everything (and, by the way, very easy to understand answers). That's where religions come from, i think; the anguish of not being able to comprehend, the fear of death, the fear of the unknown. I admit I can't explain everything, while religious people say they can. Now, who's arrogant?

Hal :
Oh yes, you're talking about absolute determinism, right? Well, maybe, though it was proven that absolute random does exist in nature (spin). But even on the basis of absolute determinism, the whole universe can be figured out without any god. Some even say (mathematicians) that it can be figured out with a looping math formula.

Jacshalom :
I've perfectely woken up. We have a common enemy, that's right. I'm not the enemy of christians, baptists ('xept maybe the ones who try to spread their creationist fantasies), hindus, whatever...
But, at national scale, all religions have to be fought to prevent them from getting political power, because the very nature of religions (all) lead to denial of individual freedom (partially at least).
At global scale, expansionnist religions like islam (is there any other one, maybe not) have to be fought to. Kept within its frontiers, embargoed, kept away from technology : muslims haven't come to sufficientely civilized level to be allowed to master nuclear power, for exemple.

Easy to see that Islam as a religion is worthless and Muslims also have the lowest possible opinion about their own faith (I leave aside other arguments to present just the following one).
Jews say: we are chosen.
I (not anti-semite) was irritated by this self-chosing for a long time.
But: It means that Jews put their faith very high and don't bother themselves of any converts whatsoever. Their religion is for chosen - as they consider it - for themselves only, and, therefore, the number of members shall be very limited to preserve this "choseness" (before the face of God). That's why Jews virtually not proselitize.
Islamists, on a contrary, put all their efforts to convert by force.
It means, that they themselves cannot refuse the fact, that Islam offers the worsest and the worthless plight for the believers, otherwise, if Islam would be worthy in their own eyes, and, thus, offering the best boon for the faithful, which is - to be considered the chosen - if Muslims would consider their faith to be such worthy, they would never try to spread it - and by force, that completely devaluate any faith - between the greatest number of converts possible, but would try to preserve Islam for their benefits.
All cannot be chosen.
It means - nobody is chosen.
Therefore - nobody will go to heaven.
Simple logic.
But logic, however simple, is out of reach of Islamists.

Assalamau Laikum Caris,

I cannot be sure of your arguments relating to Islam. I think that many muslims hate the use of force....but we love our prophet PBUH.

Our prophet PBUH set up (arguably) the most successful religion on this duniya in less than 23 years....(he first came across the angel gibreel when he was 40) so there is very little for us to introspect something that works really well.

Islam has stood the test of time too, we have had our ups and downs sure...but we are here standing tall and stronger than ever.

It seems that the strategies and policies used by our prophet PBUH back in the day ....are still appliciable 1400 years later.

So, put yourself in our shoes (even if only virtually)....why should we change success....would you?

The first rule of business is to be successful...not be be well liked or turn the other cheek when bitch slapped...and our business is Islam because life is Islam...and Islam is life...and life is 24*7 ...it's not even up for discussion.

When Muhd SAW described elements of shariat to the 1st Caliphate...he started crying. When Muhd SAW asked him why he was crying...he replied that "perfection can only be spolied...not made better".

Isn't this beautiful story enough to bring tears to yours eyes, every time I hear it ...it raises the hairs on my slim back.

So we are not here to introspect our religion...only to practice it.

truthvoice: You said, "Hal :
Oh yes, you're talking about absolute determinism, right? Well, maybe, though it was proven that absolute random does exist in nature (spin). But even on the basis of absolute determinism, the whole universe can be figured out without any god. Some even say (mathematicians) that it can be figured out with a looping math formula" -- well, if the universe can be figured out (and, of course it can be) Mindless nature is no match for consciousness - then the universe, which i am sure you will agree has no beginning in time or space (being infinite) Always contained the perfect end product of evolution which (I am sure you will agree) is perfect rationality - perfect consciousness. Therefore, there always was a God, how could it possibly be otherwise (unless you do not believe in the inevitable process of evolution) but, if the universe has no beginning (how can nothing create something) there always was the end result of evolution and the universe,being a sum total completion at all times, having the nature of infinity, never could have existed for a moment in a state of incompletion. Ergo, it is not possible for God to not exist. (you are alright, I like you - you are a seeker, and a good one).

Naseem, you said, "So we are not here to introspect our religion...only to practice it." Can't you see what is missing? What is missing if YOU! Above are the perfect marching orders of a dead Robot. You are not here to stop thinking (read,'living') but you are here to be free to work out your own salvation by learning by doing (as St. Paul tells us). Why else would you have Free Will? - use it, be alive, make mistakes - but learn how to be responsible and free. This is the only gift god gave us that is worth a damn and you are trying to live without it. That is like trying to live withour life! If you have no free will you are functionally dead - just a knee jerk to nature, an echo of the mindless universe - come back to life Naseem, unwind your mummy wraps and join us. There is no freedom of the will in the Koran, but only in your heart of hearts Naseem, only there.

truthvoice said:
Marie...

Too sad. You described not why you feel intimidated, but that you feel intimidated.

And no fact at all!!

And you leave, just like this.
And you want to make us believe that you can prove that atheists are like you describe them???
Come on, try again!

April 9, 2008 7:02 PM

I left because if we kept on going on like it would only result in one of us ( me ) getting frustrated and angry. Besides what's the point of going? It would only produce nothing. Also it would have been a waste of time and we could be doing something more productive like stopping Islam.

Besides I do not trust your sincerity.

Truthvoice ! What, nothing for me? Are you like Naseem who refuses to answer an important question because she can't? The question I ask her over and over again is why do you worship a book called the Koran which clearly advocates the murders of absolutely innocent people? and the question I asked you was, given all I said up there above about the obvious stucture of the universe, "How could there not be a God?" Cat got thy tounge? And Marie, could it be that she believe so stubornly in "blind faith" that she hates rational proof of the existence of God? We Catholics know that Faith totally without reason is the perfect definition of insanity! Muslims have faith without reason, do you want to treat your perfect mind that way too? Deal with Truthvoice, stop being such a baby! If we put our heads together we can figure everything out perfectly - stop giving up! Jesus wouldn't.

"Marie, could it be that she believe so stubornly in "blind faith" that she hates rational proof of the existence of God? We Catholics know that Faith totally without reason is the perfect definition of insanity!

I do challenge the existance of God. I do believe in the existance of God for many reasons. One reason is I do not believe in evolution as an explanation as to how we got here. Evolution says that we are here by accident. But the problem with this theory is that is does not explain the Uniformity that is seen in some of the life systems. If everything was created by accident, then how come there is uniformity, because in evolution there should be no uniformity. Also if everything was created by accident, then how come there is perfection in most of the life systems on the planet? No I do not believe in evolution. I also do not believe in athiesm, because atheism does provide answers for everything including philosophical answers like the meaning of life.

I do believe science can prove their is evidence for the existance of God and creationism

I recommend a book by David Berlinski called the Devils Delusion: Athiesm and It's Scientific Pretensions.

Here's a review of the bookfrom Amazon.com

Militant atheism is on the rise. Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, and Christopher Hitchens have dominated bestseller lists with books denigrating religious belief as dangerous foolishness. And these authors are merely the leading edge of a far larger movement–one that now includes much of the scientific community.

“The attack on traditional religious thought,” writes David Berlinski in The Devil’s Delusion, “marks the consolidation in our time of science as the single system of belief in which rational men and women might place their faith, and if not their faith, then certainly their devotion.”

A secular Jew, Berlinski nonetheless delivers a biting defense of religious thought. An acclaimed author who has spent his career writing about mathematics and the sciences, he turns the scientific community’s cherished skepticism back on itself, daring to ask and answer some rather embarrassing questions:

Has anyone provided a proof of God’s inexistence?
Not even close.

Has quantum cosmology explained the emergence of the universe or why it is here?
Not even close.

Have the sciences explained why our universe seems to be fine-tuned to allow for the existence of life?
Not even close.

Are physicists and biologists willing to believe in anything so long as it is not religious thought?
Close enough.

Has rationalism in moral thought provided us with an understanding of what is good, what is right, and what is moral?
Not close enough.

Has secularism in the terrible twentieth century been a force for good?
Not even close to being close.

Is there a narrow and oppressive orthodoxy of thought and opinion within the sciences?
Close enough.

Does anything in the sciences or in their philosophy justify the claim that religious belief is irrational?
Not even ballpark.

Is scientific atheism a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt?
Dead on.

Berlinski does not dismiss the achievements of western science. The great physical theories, he observes, are among the treasures of the human race. But they do nothing to answer the questions that religion asks, and they fail to offer a coherent description of the cosmos or the methods by which it might be investigated.

This brilliant, incisive, and funny book explores the limits of science and the pretensions of those who insist it can be–indeed must be–the ultimate touchstone for understanding our world and ourselves.

I recommend The 10 Assumptions about Science, by Glenn Borchard Ph.d

Here's a review.

The Ten Assumptions of Science
The Ten Assumptions of Science presents the logically coherent set of assumptions destined to define 21st century scientific philosophy. Glenn Borchardt first explains why assumptions and not absolutes are necessary for scientific thinking. By exploring the opposition between deterministic and indeterministic views, he clearly shows how critical choices among underlying assumptions either clarify or muddle scientific analysis.

He shows how customary mixtures of deterministic and indeterministic assumptions are responsible for the current confusion in modern physics. According to Dr. Borchardt, only rare physicists and philosophers have an inkling of the nature of time, space, energy, and matter. The need for reassessing our fundamental assumptions is indicated by the present sorry state of cosmology. Otherwise intelligent scientists promulgate the idea that the universe expanded from a tiny

I also recommend The science of God: The Convergence of Scientific and Biblical Wisdom, by Gerald L. Schroeder,
The Science Of God: An Introduction To Scientific Theology by Alister E. McGrath,The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief,by Francis S. Collins, and The Scalpel and the Soul: Encounters with Surgery, the Supernatural, and the Healing Power of Hope, by Allan J. Hamilton

Marie (or should I say, Martha, Martha?) I'm a Catholic - we can believe in evolution and do. If you had ww 3 and all life was killed except for rats and cabbages, you would still have an order in nature quite in balance. The theory of evolution is Progress through death - simply, everything that remain somehow in the environment remains to produce offspring - and that which can't is eliminated from the gene pool by cleaning death - it is too simple not to be true - God can make this process work for Him just like we humans make it work for us (look at your pet dog, or pig - or your apple tree = unnatural selection - and so are you a product of unnatural selection [by god]. God wants you to use the power of evolution to benefit humanity - genetics was invented by a Catholic Monk, very holy, very devout. Evolution is no longer a theory (as our Pope has pointed out to us recently) but a fact that cannot be ignored - read what I wrote up above there to "truthsayer" and you will see that you don't have to turn away from science at all to prove the existence of God the Catholic. Stop being prematurely senile and join us as we uncover the mysteries of God who made them mysterys just so we could "learn by doing, working out our own salvation with fear and trembling" as St. Paul puts it! Why do you hate your brain? God made it to be perfect, and it often works perfectly even for atheists! Atheism is something we all try on our way to discovering the secret of the universe! Stop being so amazingly uptight!

Oh Marie, oh Marie, look what you wrote up there! "Has anyone provided a proof of God’s inexistence?
Not even close."
That is certainly not TRUTH - I have proven it and wrote a book which I did not sell put put on line in an easy as pie to read format because I love humanity - go see, oh thou of little faith! it is at //www.godmodern.com/

er.., sorry Marie, I didn't see that word as "inexistence" which I now take your meaning

I never said I hate my brain. I love my brain for I could use it to do many things. Did I say that we should turn away from science? No. I only meant that science does not explain everything, well does not explain everything yet. Science itself is still evolving and maybe one day it will solve all the mysteries of humanity.

I am not as antiscience as I seem. In fact I am going to pursue by Bachelor's in psychology.

"Oh Marie, oh Marie, look what you wrote up there! "Has anyone provided a proof of God’s inexistence?"

My answer is no, not even close.

"Stop being so amazingly uptight!"

I'm stubborn, which is part of my personality.

Naseem,

You wrote, "It seems that the strategies and policies used by our prophet PBUH back in the day ....are still appliciable 1400 years later."

Agreed. Your prophet murdered his critics, and so do his slaves 1400 years later, based on his example, but don't take my word for it. Consider what these guys wrote:

Bukhari:V4B52N270 “Allah’s Messenger said, ‘Who is ready to kill Ashraf? He has said injurious things about Allah and His Apostle.’ Maslama got up saying, ‘Would you like me to kill him?’ The Prophet proclaimed, ‘Yes.’ Maslama said, ‘Then allow me to lie so that I will be able to deceive him.’ Muhammad said, ‘You may do so.’”
Ishaq:551 “Another victim was Huwayrith. He used to insult Muhammad in Mecca. Huwayrith was put to death by Ali.”

Ishaq:597 “When the Apostle returned to Medina after his raid on Ta’if, word spread that he had killed some of the men who had satirized and insulted him. The poets who were left spread in all directions.”

Ishaq:676 “‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said. ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’”

Tabari VII:112/Ishaq:372 “When a blind Jew became aware of the presence of the Messenger and the Muslims he rose and threw dust in their faces, saying, ‘Even if you are a prophet, I will not allow you into my garden!’ I was told that he took a handful of dirt and said, ‘If only I knew that I would not hit anyone else, Muhammad, I would throw it in your face.’ Sa’d rushed in and hit him on the head with his bow and split the Jew’s head open.”

Tabari VIII:179/Ishaq:550 “Among those who Muhammad ordered killed was Abdallah bin Khatal. The Messenger ordered him to be slain because while he was a Muslim, Muhammad had sent him to collect the zakat tax with an Ansar and a slave of his.... His girls used to sing a satire about Muhammad so the Prophet ordered that they should be killed along with Abdullah. He was killed by Sa’id and Abu Barzah. The two shared in his blood. One of the singing girls was killed quickly but the other fled. So Umar caused his horse to trample the one who fled, killing her.”

I repeat, Naseem. Unlike Jesus, Mohammad was a cold blooded murderer. Why do believe anything he says?

On cosmic consciousness:
Years ago a Chinese teacher of mine, stated an interesting comment that has stayed with me over the years.
He stated that what we know of Cosmic consciousness was like this, he placed his finger at the tip of his other finger and showed about a quarter inch of it.
I believe books can be of great assistance to stimulate the mind into higher octaves but not to be idolized.
I do get tired of the individual Atheists who with arrogance shoot down the believers of a religion with flaws but which aims at Universal Love.

Obviously Islam doesn't understand the concept, which why we are here. My war against Islam is presently:

http://www.petitiononline.com/MYSTIC/petition.html

Assalaumu Laikum Lex,

I don't understand your concluding line if you assume that Jesus PBUh was a muslim too.

Petition: End Human Rights Abuses against Copts in Egypt

To: The UN Secretary, U.S.Congress, United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights

WE THE UNDERSIGNED wish to bring to the attention of the World Community the continuing plight of Coptic Christian Citizens living in the sovereign Nation of Egypt:

1.Coptic Christian Citizens of the Sovereign Nation of Egypt have been continually persecuted in Egypt. More than forty cold-blooded massacres have been committed against Coptic Christians in recent years, resulting in the injury and murder of men, women, and children, and untold loss of businesses and property.

2. On Friday November 7, 2003, in the village of Gerza-Ayiat-Giza, eleven Coptic Christian Citizens of the Sovereign Nation of Egypt were injured, and dozens of homes and businesses were burned by a mob of approximately 500 radical Egyptian Muslims armed with knives, sticks, kerosene and benzene. Fields and crops were also burned by this violent mob. Many of the injured who were bleeding and suffering with broken bones were unable to leave their homes to seek medical attention as they feared to leave their children while this violent angry mob was permitted to go unchecked. The local Police refused to document this event, and refused to allow local Coptic Christians to file complaints against the perpetrators of this attack. Not a single individual to date has been arrested or prosecuted for these crimes.

3. In October of 2003, more than 22 Coptic Christian Citizens of the Sovereign Nation of Egypt were arrested, many of them converts from Islam to Christianity. These Christians were beaten, interrogated and tortured. The women among them may have been raped. All of this has been done in an attempt by the Islamic Authorities to persuade these Christians to renounce their Christian Faith and return to Islam. Not a single individual was ever arrested or prosecuted for these crimes.

4. On August 19, 2003, over 300 Egyptian Soldiers were ordered by the local governor to destroy a fence surrounding the historic 4th century Monastery of St. Anthony in El Zaaferane, Red Sea Governorate in spite of the fact that this fence was authorized and constructed by the previous governor of the Red Sea, State Security and the Ministry of the Interior in 1991-1992. The monks in
residence at this Monastery used their bodies as shields to prevent the Egyptian Government Security Forces from attacking the Monastery.

5. On April 5, 2003, an Egyptian Army Unit attacked the Charity Isle of Patmos, a Coptic Christian Center, the sole purpose of which is to provide treatment and support for mentally and physically handicapped children and orphans. This Center is legally registered with the Egyptian Authorities. This attack was conducted with armed vehicles, a bulldozer and tear gas, against unarmed helpless children. Not a single individual was ever arrested or prosecuted for these crimes.

6. On February 11, 2002, a newly constructed and completed Coptic Christian Church was stormed by dozens of radical armed Muslim Egyptians. These individuals set fire to this newly constructed house of worship, and additionally set fire to 35 homes and 3 automobiles belonging to Egyptian Coptic Christians. Ten Coptic Christian Citizens of the Sovereign Nation of Egypt were wounded in this attack. In addition, these radicals also attacked two buses carrying parishioners to the church. Local police failed to arrive on the scene for more than four hours. Muslim radicals were observed preventing fire trucks from entering the village to extinguish the fire inside the Church. Not a single individual was ever arrested or prosecuted for these crimes with one notable exception. The Church Priest, Father Luka Ibrahim Sargious was arrested and questioned.

7. On February 24, 2001, over 100 Egyptian Policeman stormed and destroyed with bulldozers the Coptic Church of St. Bola located in Shobra Elkhaima after the local Bishop had asked for permission to hold prayers.

8. On Friday, December 31, 1999, New Year’s Eve, a dispute between a Muslim trader and a Christian shop-owner in the village of El-Kosheh erupted into violence, which resulted in the deaths of 21 Coptic Christians. Over 260 Christian homes and businesses were destroyed. During the violence local Police forces either stood passively watching the mayhem, or worse, became actively involved in the attacks. 96 suspects were arrested and “prosecuted” by the Egyptian Courts, however an Egyptian State Security Court acquitted all 96 suspects on February 5, 2001. The Sohag Criminal Court found four men guilty. One Muslim perpetrator received a sentence of 15 years for the killing of the sole Muslim victim, which in fact was in another village and not part of the El-Kosheh massacre. The other three men received two and one-half year sentences for setting a truck on fire. Not a single individual responsible for the deaths of these 21 Christians was brought to justice. This miscarriage of justice may now be viewed by the Muslim community as a green light to kill Christians in Egypt.

9. On August 14, 1998, two Coptic Christians were murdered, again in the village of El Kosheh. The Egyptian Authorities’ response to these murders was to arrest 1000 Coptic Christians, many of whom were tortured in an effort to force confessions. Local Coptic Christians insisted that the murderers were Muslim.

10. On March 13, 1997, hundreds of radical Egyptian Muslims attacked the village of Bahgoura, Nagi-Hammady. Nine Coptic Christians were killed. The homes and businesses of Coptic Christians were burned and destroyed. Not a single individual was ever arrested or prosecuted for these crimes.

11. On February 12, 1997, a group of radical Egyptian Muslims attacked and murdered 12 Coptic Christian Sunday School students praying inside their church in the village of Abu Quorcas. Not a single individual was ever arrested or prosecuted for these crimes.

12. On February 25, 1996, hundreds of radical Egyptian Muslims attacked the Coptic village of El-Badary, Asyut, looting homes, animals and crops, and destroying homes and fields. Seven Coptic Christian citizens of the Sovereign Nation of Egypt were murdered. Not a single individual was ever arrested or prosecuted for these crimes.

13. On October 10, 1994, a mob of radical Egyptian Muslims attacked the village of El-Qousya, Asyut, looting and destroying homes and businesses, resulting in the deaths of seven Coptic Christian citizens of the Sovereign Nation of Egypt. Not a single individual was ever arrested or prosecuted for these crimes.

14. On March 11, 1994, at St. Mary’s Monastery in the village of El-Mouharak, Asyut, a mob of radical Muslim Egyptians attacked and killed an Archpriest, a Monk, and three laymen in front of the Monastery. Not a single individual was ever arrested or prosecuted for these crimes.

15. On May 4, 1992, in the village of Manshyet El-Nasr, Dairout, Asyut, a group of radical Muslim Egyptians attacked and murdered 12 Coptic Christian citizens of the Sovereign Nation of Egypt in their field, looted their animals and crops.
Not a single individual was ever arrested or prosecuted for these crimes.

16. On May 12, 1990, in the city of Alexandria, a group of radical Muslim Egyptians ambushed and murdered a Coptic Priest and six other Coptic Christian citizens of the Sovereign Nation of Egypt. Not a single individual was ever arrested or prosecuted for these crimes.

17. On June 17, 1981, 22 Coptic Christian citizens of the Sovereign Nation of Egypt were burned inside their homes and businesses in the village of El-Zawia El-Hamra, Cairo, during religious rioting. The Egyptian Internal Minister at that time, General Hassan Abu Basha declared after his resignation from office that 81 Coptic Christian citizens of the Sovereign Nation of Egypt were killed, over one hundred were seriously wounded, and 80 homes were looted and destroyed. Not a single individual was ever arrested or prosecuted for these crimes.

1. 1. IT SHOULD BE NOTED THAT
Coptic Christian citizens of Egypt do not differ from their Muslim neighbors either ethnically or linguistically. All speak Arabic. All are Egyptian citizens.
According to the Islamic sharia Law, anyone who denounces his religion of Islam should be executed, his marriage annulled and his children and property confiscated.
The Egyptian constitution, second article states that “Egypt is a Muslim country and the Islamic Sharia law is the main source of legalization.” This statement contradicts article number forty as contained in the Egyptian constitution, which states that all “all citizens are equal regardless of color, creed, or religion.”
The Sovereign Nation of Egypt is a Signatory to the United Nation Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted on December 10, 1948 by the General Assembly of the United Nations without dissent, which states in part that:
Article 1: All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Article 3: Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and security of persons.
Article 5: No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, not to attacks upon his honor and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 18: Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship, and observance.
Article 20: (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and
(2) (2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.
WE CALL UPON THE GOVERNMENT OF EGYPT to educate it’s Muslim population as to the rights of their Coptic neighbors to live in peace and security, free from harassment and violence, and to ensure that it’s Coptic Christian citizens are afforded the same rights as its Muslim citizens.
WE, THE SIGNATORIES OF THIS PETITION, CALL UPON THE EGYPTIAN GOVERNMENT:
To reveal to the World Community ‘the whole truth’ concerning the persecution of Coptic Christian citizens of the Sovereign Nation of Egypt, to identify all those responsible, either actively or complicity, for these continuing atrocities;
To arrest and bring to trial’ all suspects implicated in the murders of 21 Coptic Christians in the village of El Kosheh in 199/2000;
To provide all victims of the violence of El Kosheh with reparation and support for material and emotional loss;
To lay the foundations for Egypt which respects and promotes Human Rights for all its citizens without distinction.
WE, THE SIGNATORIES OF THIS PETITION, CALL UPON THE UNITED NATIONS TO FORMALLY CONDEMN THE EL-KOSHEH INCIDENTS AND TO FORMALLY CONDEMN ALL PERSECUTION OF COPTIC CHRISTIANS TAKING PLACE IN THE SOVEREIGN NATION OF EGYPT.
WE, THE SIGNATORIES OF THIS PETITION, CALL UPON THE UNITED NATIONS TO ESTABLISH AN INQUIRY COMMISSION TO FULLY INVESTIGATE THE EL-KOSHEH INCIDENT OF 1999,2000, AND TO PROSECUTE THE GUILTY THROUGH THE INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL.

WE, THE SIGNATORIES OF THIS PETITION, CALL UPON THE UNITED NATIONS TO ENACT A RESOLUTION DEMANDING THE IMMEDIATE CESSATION OF VIOLENCE, HARASSMENT, DISCRIMINATION AND RELGIOUS INTOLERANCE PERPETRATED AGAINST COPTIC CHRISTIAN CITIZENS OF THE SOVEREIGN NATION OF EGYPT.
WE, THE SIGNATORIES OF THIS PETITION, CALL UPON THE UNITED STATES CONGRESS TO WITHHOLD A MINIMUM OF $300,000,000 IN UNITED STATES TAXPAYER FUNDED FINANCIAL AID TO THE SOVEREIGN NATION OF EGYPT UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A FEDERAL COURT IN THE UNITED STATES RULES ON AWARDING PUNITVE DAMAGES AND COMPENSATION TO THE FAMILIES OF THE DECEASED, AND TO SURVIVORS OF THE EL-LOSHEH MASSACRE.
WE THE SIGNATORIES OF THIS PETITION, CALL UPON THE PRESIDENT OF THE SOVERIEIGN NATION OF EGYPT, HOSNY MUBARAK, REQUIRING THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF EGYPT CORRECT THE FLAGANT DENIAL OF JUSTICE WHEREBY ONLY THE ACCIDENTAL DEATH OF A MUSLIM BY MUSLIMS WAS PUNISHED IN REGARD TO THE EL-KOSHEH INCIDENT OF 1999/2000, WHILE THE MURDERS OF 21 COPTIC CHRISTIAN CITIZENS OF EGYPT WENT UNPUNISHED.
WE THE SIGNATORIES OF THIS PETITION, CALL UPON THE PRESIDENT OF THE SOVEREIGN NATION OF EGYPT, HOSNY MUBARAK, REQUIRING THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF EGYPT CARRY OUT AN INDEPENDENT INQUIRY INTO THE ACTIONS OF THE EGYPTIAN SECURITY FORCES IN 1998.
WE THE SIGNATORIES OF THIS PETITION, CALL UPON THE PRESIDENT OF THE SOVEREIGN NATION OF EGYPT, HOSNY MUBARAK, REQUIRING THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF EGYPT CONDUCT A THOROUGH REVIEW OF THE EGYPTIAN GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS INVOLVED IN THE EL-LOSHEH INCIDENT OF 1999/2000, PUNISH THOSE FOUND GUILTY OF OFFICAL MISCONDUCT, AND INQUIRE AS TO WHY THE LOCAL EGYPTIAN SECURITY FORCES FAILED TO STOP THE MASSACRE OR TO INTERVENE IN ANY WAY.
WE THE SIGNATORIES OF THIS PETITION, CALL UPON THE PRESIDENT OF THE SOVEREIGN NATION OF EGYPT, CARRY OUT THESE INQUIRIES INTO THE EL-KOSHEH INCIDENT OF 1999/2000, AND CONDUCT TRIALS INDEPENDENT OF THE LOCAL SECURITY FORCES AND LOCAL AUOTHIRIES.
WE THE SIGNATORIES OF THIS PETITION, CALL UPON THE PRESIDENT OF THE SOVEREIGN NATION OF EGYPT ENSURE THAT SUBSEQUENT INQUIRIES AND TRIALS BE CONDUCTED WITH THE ACTIVE PARTICIPATION OF PROMINENT HUMAN RIGHTS GUARANTORS AND INTERNATIONAL OBERVERS.
WE THE SIGNATORIES OF THIS PETITION, CALL UPON THE PRESIDENT OF THE OSVEREIGN NATION OF EGYPT, HOSNY MUBARAK, REQUIRING THAT THE GOVERNMENT OF EGYPT PUBLICALLY DROP ALL CHARGES AGAINST BISHOP WISSA AND FATHERS GABRAIL AND ANTONIOUS IN CONNECTION WITH THEIR PROTEST OF POLICE BRUTALITY IN 1998, RETURN THEIR BAIL, AND DISCIPLINE JUDGE AFIFY FOR HIS ABUSIVE COMMENTS ABOUT THEM WHEN THEY WERE NOT ON TRIAL.
[http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/000459.php]

TO SIGN THE PETITION:
http://www.petitiononline.com/coptic/petition-sign.html?

First, Atheism is a religion. It is a religion, an unwavering belief, a faith in no god. In fact this "non-religion" is hell bent on forcing itself on all mankind as is evident by your statements.

Second, even cults like Mormanism, Moonies,Scientology and the like do not force themselves on any one else by enacting laws or through violence.

Third, all religions have some key things in common an intermediary to their God. Some examples are, Budah, Jesus, Confusious, Moses, Mohammad, and the like. All these intermediaries try to transcendence the human condition, to try to rise above the human needs and the desires of the flesh, all except one.....Muhammad! He grasps the flesh and then offers these rewards to his followers.

Whether you believe in a GOD or a NON-GOD we can agree there is good and bad. If evil and goodness exist to which could you attribute the promise of sex with virgins for blowing yourself up, for killing children? To whom could one credit the stoning of a woman for being raped by a man, to whom can we attribute the condoning of sex with a baby but only rectally? Islam is the incarnation of evil the seed of destruction of the civilized wold. It doesn't matter to Islam if you are an Atheist, you will submit to this doctrine of hate, pay a heavy tax for your freedom to not believe in a God or you will be killed.

AllAHU AKHBAR.......my ass.

I have no problems with athiests in general. But when they make statements like all religious thought should be suppress, people with religious connections should be kept from office and parents should be banned from teaching their children religion and should be arrested for doing so, then I have to say something.

Here's something about the movie Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed from Ben Stein's blog. This demonstrates my point.

“Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed,” will boast the largest U.S. opening of any documentary film ever.Scheduled for release in 1,000 theatres, “Expelled” will be hotter than “Farenheit 9/11,” which debuted on 868 screens, and much more convenient to see than “An Inconvenient Truth,” which I was surprised to find opened on only four screens nationwide despite all the hype, peaking at 587 before its appeal melted.What’s “Expelled” about? Synopsizes CNS News:

“Expelled” calls attention to the plight of highly credentialed scholars who have been forced out of prestigious academic positions because they proposed Intelligent Design as a possible alternative to Charles Darwin’s 150-year-old theories about the origins of life. Instead of entertaining a debate on the merits of competing theories, the scientific establishment has moved to suppress the ID movement in a “systematic and ruthless” way at odds with America’s founding principles, the film asserts.

This violated America's founding principles and the principles for all of humanity, which everyone is guaranteed to civil liberties and civil rights as human beings. Also the belief that religion should be suppressed is akin to Communism and is a dangerous belief, because it could lead to human rights violations.

Marie :
"I left because if we kept on going ..."

Maybe you left because of something, but the point is that you left without giving any element, without leaving any proof that the atheist you pretend to know do something!

And you dare to tell i'm not sincere? How can I be "not sincere" while I'm only asking questions? Questions you don't answer by the way, sincere Marie.

Believe me. I'm a sincere atheist.
And I'm a sincere non-proselytist. Have I tried to turn you into an atheist? No, I didn't. Hal is trying to turn me into a believer, while I'm not trying to convert him, no more than you.
But I can't let you try to make people believe that atheists are dangerous sect-members whose intend is to expa,d their philosophy. Atheist just want to be left alone by believers. They just don't want any kind of religion to interfere with their lifestyle or their choice, that's all. On that point, we agree (see above). This is just the definition of true freedom.

Hal :
I'm from Belgium, western Europe. There is a 6 hours jet-lag betweeen Brussels and N-Y, I play with my computer at night only!

I like to discuss with you, but we are kind of de-synchronized. I drank to much tonight to play with you,, you're a pretty tough opponent, compared to Marie, I admit :) .
"The universe has no beginning..." well, not necessarily. Time itself could be something that has not "always been", as weird as it may seem. Some physicists even consider that time could be "discrete" (non continuous), meaning that you travel from an instant to the next, that stands at some "distance" (time-dimensionally speaking) from the previous one WITHOUT going through the infinite amount of instants you could imagine that exist between the first and the second. Progression in time would then be nothing more than a succession of "time travels" or "time jumps". Space can also be considered that way. Physicist consider that time itself has a "start". Then, why should the universe "contain" the ultimate (not necessarily perfect) product of evolution (admitting it is perfect implies partially assuming there is some concious will leading the process, wich, again, is the idea to be proven).
I don't agree with your "this", and I don't agree with your "implies" when you say "this implies that".

Marie (again) :
"in evolution there should be no uniformity" Oh, well? why shouldn't there be uniformity?? And... beside... is there uniformity? What do you mean by "uniformity", don't you think that there is a wide variety in lifeforms? (And in not living structures, as well, like, minerals, for exemple).

"how come there is perfection in most of the life systems"
Come on! Who said they are perfect? some say they are,... well,... not bad. Nobody says everything is perfect.

"atheism does provide answers for everything"
Nope! That's the exact opposite of the facts! Atheism is humble! Atheism admits that we ca'nt aswer everything, because science hasn't been pushed far enough yet. On the other hand, religions claim to have answers to all the misteries of the universe.
Your Berlinski asks tendencious questions, read them again! "Physics don't answer the questions reigions ask" Wow! So, it takes nothing more than to ask any delirious question to make a science like physics (the very apex of civilisation) look dumb? Hmm! That's why, I think, religions (all) are a perversion of human thought.

"Has anyone provided a proof of God’s inexistence?"
Come on!!! (again).
I heard this thousands of times!!!
I have questions like this too!
"Has anyone provided a proof of Santa Claus' inexistance?"
"Has anyone provided a proof of Spiderman's inexistance?"
"Has anyone provided a proof of Anubis' inexistance?"
"Has anyone provided a proof of the tooth fairy's inexistance?"

As long as religions keep within the limits of the walls of your churches and of you houses, it's ok to me. But don't come in the streets, in the schools, on tv, or on the political tribune.

Marie, all the so-called facts about creationism are delirious. They even use photoshopped pictures to illustrate their fantasies. Harun Yaya, that muslim charlatan, even tries to use a picture of the old brass microscope Darwin used as an argument to claim Darwin's gear was archaïc!

Moc :

"Atheism is a religion"
Just : NOT - AT - ALL. This is insulting. We do not believe in a non-god. A non-god would be a kind of god.
Atheism is this : "what do you say? You're telling me there is some upper world where some superior being lives and has all power on everything? That's what you say? Woow, this would be some kind of funny movie, but, hey, you don't believe it's true do you? You do!? Boy! You're pretty weird, you know that? But it's ok to me as long as you stay cool mith your,..., well,... god-thing...ok?"

Atheism is the absence of religious elements in the patchwork of our philosophy THEREFORE it is absolutely NOT a religion! You have to understand this, Moc.

Marie :
"I have no problems with athiests in general. But when they make statements like all religious thought should be suppress, people with religious connections should be kept from office and parents should be banned from teaching their children religion and should be arrested for doing so, then I have to say something."

Well, Marie. They just do not say anything close to that. Did I? No, I didn't.
Atheists say : "don't bother me with your things, don't try to interfere with my life. Do what you want to your children, but leave mine alone."

Naseem said:

"Assalaumu Laikum Lex,

I don't understand your concluding line if you assume that Jesus PBUh was a muslim too."

I don't assume that Jesus was a Muslim. I wrote, "Unlike Jesus, Mohammad was a cold blooded murderer. Why do (you) believe anything he says?" to contrast the two.

There are many things that Jesus said and did that are recorded in the Gospels, but which are rejected or distorted in the Qur'an by Mohammad, that cold blooded murderer who claimed to be a prophet. I should add that Mohammad was also a thief, a liar, a bigot, a rapist, and a pedophile, yet you accept his testimony as true. Why?

"And you dare to tell i'm not sincere? How can I be "not sincere" while I'm only asking questions? Questions you don't answer by the way, sincere Marie."

I was wrong about you. I will apologize for my comment, even though it is probably too late to apologize.

"And I'm a sincere non-proselytist. Have I tried to turn you into an atheist? No, I didn't. Hal is trying to turn me into a believer, while I'm not trying to convert him, no more than you."

Have I said anything to try to convince or convert you to Christianity?

"But I can't let you try to make people believe that atheists are dangerous sect-members whose intend is to expa,d their philosophy."

I will admit I did exaggerate on my comments. But the post I left yesterday, I truly mean what I said. Not all athiests are out to destroy religion, I know this because I used to know people who are athiests. But I have come across fanatic athiests who believe in Richard Dawkins belief that religion should be suppressed out all costs.

"in evolution there should be no uniformity" Oh, well? why shouldn't there be uniformity?? And... beside... is there uniformity? What do you mean by "uniformity", don't you think that there is a wide variety in lifeforms? (And in not living structures, as well, like, minerals, for exemple)."

I was talking about the uniformity seen in the stars. Astronomists are to predict the movement of the stars based on their current positions and movements in the past. I am clear on my explanation?

"Well, Marie. They just do not say anything close to that. Did I? No, I didn't.
Atheists say : "don't bother me with your things, don't try to interfere with my life. Do what you want to your children, but leave mine alone.""

Here's something from Richard Dawkins website.
Religion's Real Child Abuse

by Richard Dawkins
In the wake of the current scandal over child abuse by priests , I have had a letter from an American woman in her mid forties who was brought up Roman Catholic. She has two strong recollections from when she was seven. She was sexually abused by her parish priest in his car. And around the same time a little schoolfriend of hers, who had tragically died, went to hell because she was a Protestant. Or so my correspondent was led to believe by the then official doctrine of her church. Her view now is that, of these two examples of Roman Catholic child abuse, the one physical and the other mental, the second was by far the worst. She writes:

"Being fondled by the priest simply left the impression (from the mind of a 7 year old) as 'yuchy' while the memory of my friend going to hell was one of cold, immeasurable fear. I never lost sleep because of the priest ? but I spent many a night being terrified that the people I loved would go to Hell. It gave me nightmares."

I am sure her experience is far from unique. And what if we assume a less altruistic child, worried about her own eternity rather than a friend's? Odious as the physical abuse of children by priests undoubtedly is, I suspect that it may do them less lasting damage than the mental abuse of bringing them up Catholic in the first place.

Happily I was spared the misfortune of a Roman Catholic upbringing (Anglicanism is a significantly less noxious strain of the virus). Being fondled by the Latin master in the Squash Court was a disagreeable sensation for a nine-year-old, a mixture of embarrassment and skin-crawling revulsion, but it was certainly not in the same league as being led to believe that I, or someone I knew, might go to everlasting fire. As soon as I could wriggle off his knee, I ran to tell my friends and we had a good laugh, our fellowship enhanced by the shared experience of the same sad pedophile. I do not believe that I, or they, suffered lasting, or even temporary damage from this disagreeable physical abuse of power. Given the Latin Master's eventual suicide, maybe the damage was all on his side.

Of course I accept that his misdemeanors, although by today's standards enough to earn imprisonment followed by a life sentence of persecution by vigilantes, were mild compared to those committed by some priests now in the news. I am in no position to make light of the horrific experiences of their altar-boy victims. But reports of child abuse cover a multitude of sins, from mild fondling to violent buggery, and I am sure many of those cases now embarrassing the church fall at the mild end of the spectrum . Doubtless, too, some fall at the violent end, which is terrible but I would make two points about it. First, just because some pedophile assaults are violent and painful, it doesn't mean that all are. A child too young to notice what is happening at the hands of a gentle pedophile will have no difficulty at all in noticing the pain inflicted by a violent one. Phrases like 'predatory monster' are not discriminating enough, and are framed in the light of adult hang-ups. Second (and this is the point with which I began) the mental abuse constituted by an unsubstantiated threat of violence and terrible pain, if sincerely believed by the child, could easily be more damaging than the physical actuality of sexual abuse. An extreme threat of violence and pain is precisely what the doctrine of hell is. And there is no doubt at all that many children sincerely believe it, often continuing right through adulthood and old age until death finally releases them.

It will be said that the Catholic Church no longer preaches hell fire in its full horror. That depends on how upmarket is your area and how progressive your priest . But eternal punishment certainly was the normal doctrine dished out to congregations, including terrified children, back in the time when many of the priests now facing expulsion or prosecution committed their physical abuses. Most of the victims bringing or supporting lawsuits are now in their middle years. They therefore, along with many others who were never physically abused, probably experienced mental terrorism of the hell fire type. The long retrospect of the law entitles middle-aged victims to lucrative redress, decades after they suffered physically. Nobody thinks the physical injuries of sexual abuse could possibly last decades , so the damages now being claimed have to be the mental consequences of the original physical abuse. A typical claimant, now 54, said that his "life was marred by inexplicable confusions, anger, depression and lost faith." (Parenthetically, one can't help marvelling at the idea of a life being marred by lost faith. Perhaps it would get the sympathy of a jury.) But the point is this. If you can sue for the long-term mental damage caused by physical child abuse, why should you not sue for the long-term mental damage caused by mental child abuse? Only a minority of priests abuse the bodies of the children in their care. But how many priests abuse their minds? Why aren't Catholics and ex-Catholics lining up to sue the church into the ground, for a lifetime of psychological damage?

I am not advocating this course of action. Much as I would like to see the Roman Catholic Church ruined, I hate opportunistically retrospective litigation even more. Lawyers who grow fat by digging dirt on long-forgotten wrongs, and hounding their aged perpetrators, are no friends of mine. All I am doing is calling attention to an anomaly. By all means, let's kick a nasty institution when it is down, but there are better ways than litigation. And an obsessive concentration on sexual abuse by priests is in danger of blinding us to all their other forms of child abuse.

The threat of eternal hell is an extreme example of mental abuse, just as violent sodomy is an extreme example of physical abuse. Most physical abuse is milder, and so is most of the mental abuse inherent in a typical religious education. The priest who urged a 14-year-old altar boy to give him oral sex, "blessing it as a way to receive Holy Communion " wasn't only abusing the trust normally enjoyed by any teacher, youth leader or scoutmaster. He was cashing in on the years of religious brainwashing that the child had endured as a cradle Catholic. Holy Communion: nice one! But again, only an extreme example of what churches ? and also mosques and synagogues ? do to child minds in their care, in the normal course of events.

'What shall we tell the children?' is a superb polemic on how religions abuse the minds of children, by the distinguished psychologist Nicholas Humphrey. It was originally delivered as a lecture in aid of Amnesty International, and has now been reissued as a chapter of his book, The Mind Made Flesh, just published by Oxford University Press. It is also available on the worldwide web and I strongly recommend it. Humphrey argues that, in the same way as Amnesty works tirelessly to free political prisoners the world over, we should work to free the children of the world from the religions which, with parental approval, damage minds too young to understand what is happening to them. He is right, and the same lesson should inform our discussions of the current pedophile brouhaha. Priestly groping of child bodies is disgusting. But it may be less harmful in the long run than priestly subversion of child minds.

First of all I do believe the Catholic Church needs to do some house cleaning and that means putting child abusers behind bars. There are many different sects in Christianity and I do believe it is wrong for Richard Dawkins to put all of Christianity under one roof. Also how does he know that religion psychologically damages children? I know many people who were raised as Christians and are psychologically healthy. What degree does he have in child psychology, that would lead him to make these assertions.

As far as this concerned there are some athiests who do want to interfere with people's lives and prohibit them from teaching their own children religion.I have met a few followers of Dawkins and they state people should be banned from teaching their religion and anyone caught doing so, should be arrested. I truly believe that people have the right to teach their children whatever belief system they want to whether it is religious or not.